Using dimming to prevent "too blinky"

[tfischer]

I'll start by saying I'm interested in a real discussion here. Not trying to "start something", offend anyone, yadda yadda, but trying to improve all of our synchronizing techniques.

One of the comments I repeatedly hear when viewing display videos with others (both within the PC community and externally) is "wow that's cool, but it's way too blinky", or "wow that's really giving me a headache" or "I'm getting dizzy!".

Given the power of dozens of computer-controlled channels, and the ability to easilly make them blink at will, is a dangerous thing. I look at my own display sometimes and say "wow that's very flashy". Our display is softened a little by the fact that we have about 50% of the lights on "static".

One thing that occurred to me, is (and again, I don't mean this to be offensive), a lot of people like to blink a LOT of lights to many, many beats of the music. So the display throbs on and off and on rapidly. This causes two things: one is that you never really see the whole display lit up (I like to see LOTS of lights at once) and that you get the "dizzying", "throbbing", or "seizure" effect.

I was wondering if anyone had considered using dimming to soften this? For example, you could keep large groups of your lights on constantly (or at least more often) at 40%, and do your animation "over the top" of this at 100%. We use this effect a lot in our display with the Mega Tree and mini trees -- you still get a fine chasing effect, but get to see all the trees (or all of the tree) at once. I don't see why this wouldn't work with any arbitrary grouping of lights.

Comments? Just trying to get some technique threads going, and provoke some discussion. I certainly don't claim to have the right answers!

-Tim

[Kevin Easley]

That is one thing that concerns me for my 1st LOR display next year, from both the perspective of my wife and my neighbors. I've written 1 sequence already and have kept a decent portion of the lights on throughout. I'll also have lights in the windows & maybe trees that will be static. I'll just have to test and see. But your suggestions DO sound like a good idea and I'll probably try to work some of that in too.

[Greg Parcell]

One of the things I've learned from Drew Hickman this year iskeeping more of the display on at all times at reduced light levels. His basic rule of thumb is to keep about 70% of the lights on at all times and only animate about 30% of them at one time.

For pops or ramps, he then quite often ramps them to 100% but from a starting point of say 30-40%. I have seen especially with large trees, that this reduces the blink effect dramatically while giving an almost elegant look to the animation. Kind of hard to describe, but he's taught me quite a bit on how to still give a wow factor but be subtle at the same time.

[Analogvideo]

tfischer wrote:

One of the comments I repeatedly hear when viewing display videos with others (both within the PC community and externally) is "wow that's cool, but it's way too blinky", or "wow that's really giving me a headache" or "I'm getting dizzy!".
.....
Given the power of dozens of computer-controlled channels, and the ability to easilly make them blink at will, is a dangerous thing. I look at my own display sometimes and say "wow that's very flashy". Our display is softened a little by the fact that we have about 50% of the lights on "static".
.....
I was wondering if anyone had considered using dimming to soften this? For example, you could keep large groups of your lights on constantly (or at least more often) at 40%, and do your animation "over the top" of this at 100%. We use this effect a lot in our display with the Mega Tree and mini trees -- you still get a fine chasing effect, but get to see all the trees (or all of the tree) at once. I don't see why this wouldn't work with any arbitrary grouping of lights.
.....
Comments?



Tim,

Great topic! My "computer controlled lights" (actually load switches and local firmware of my own design) feature either on-off switching or fading with four power levels of each channel.

I call the on-off switching "bang-bang" and it does have the abrupt effect that can easily be annoying!

The fading is done by only switching the loads on the AC zero-crossing, which greatly reduces RFI/EMI interference and is kinder to the lamps, therebyincreasing their life.

By adding or removing AC half-cycles to the loads, the fadingactionreduces the power from 100% (all half-cycles) down to 75% (three out of four half-cycles) down to 50% (every other AC cycle, or two half-cycles) and finally 25% (one out of four half-cycles).

The effect on the light show is amazingly significant! Simple sequences like a chaser are more graceful and the light colours blend between sequence steps. Bang-Bang switching of the loads has its place in other sequences and most likely is needed in lively music sync'd displays (I don't use music in this year's display).

One unintended consequence of switching banks of heavy loads (I mostly use C9s in 25 count strings) is that we see flicker indoors in our normal room lighting. Mostly this is not too obvious throughout the year (Air Conditioners or swimming pool pumps kicking on and off) but the fixed pattern sequence of the Christmas lights comes through very clearly even though the flicker is only a few percent of the steady burning light level. It's made worse by indoor dimmer switches that rely on phase-angle control for dimming the lights - which seem to blink more than hard wirerd lights on the same branch circuit.

I haven't read of any other complaints about this topic (Christmas displays affecting indoor lights) so I'm going to start a new thread as soon as I have a few minutes free.

Comments Welcome!

[Rick Hughes]

Tim, I totally agree and I think it requires a lot of skill to overcome the problem. It's simply too easy to do a ramp-fade (especially when under pressure to get the sequence done) versus creating more artistic arrangements.

That's my goal for the coming year. Last year (late 2004) I was initiated into LOR, this year I did a better job of getting the timing of the songs better synched ... and next year will be to improve the artistic element.

Just this morning I was looking in the garage for an area where I can use a section of a wall to lay out enough of my lights to get a feel for the display. The animation tool is very helpful, but it's not the same as actually experiencing the change in intensity and such.

I think -- also -- the software/hardware might need to offer either additional tools or ways to customize the existing tools. But I can actually define what more I would want other than to have a shimmer at a reduced percentage.

Anyway ... I look forward to a productive discussion :-) Thanks for starting it, particularly now (rather than in February) while we're all in the thick of it.

[MagicChristmasTree]

I am glad you brought up this topic. I love the snappy music synchronized with lights for part of a show but both my neighbors and I would go crazy if I did that for the whole show. I go nuts when a neighbor hasstrands of pre-programmed multi-color lights running all evening, every evening with the controller speed set to "stun".

And I don't want to distract the drivers on the one-way street that runs alongside my house. Lord knows, they drive like maniacs already.

My Magic Christmas Tree (mega-tree), house/walk lights and lighted decorations are all on dimmers and I cross-fade between scenes.I have a library of about 75 pre-programmed lighting scenes that are used to create sequenceswith 1-3 seconds of fade time. Only at the end of each show (about every 10 minutes) do I go down to 0 fade time and let things blink for a short time.

Since I use 7-watt C-7s on the tree and 5-watt C-7s on everything else, the use of dimmers and fade times really increases my lamp life. Changing which parts of the display are on, changing colors and combinations of colors, and animating motion all play a part in my sequences. Sometimes I have "background" channels - lights that are on at a steady 50% while other channels go through a full-brightness sequence. This directs attention to each part of the show in turn, but the rest of the display is not totally dark.

My programming philosophy may change a little bit if I start to use more mini lights next year, but I still want to keep my show dynamics in the "elegantly tasteful" domain, rather than add too much high speedblinking.

All that said, I have watched Carson's video about 30 times and have become addicted to the Trans-Siberian Orchestra. I am just bummed that I found out about them AFTER theirColorado performances.

[dgiordano]

So my 2:30 sequence across 32 channels probably is a bit distracting? :shock:Well okay, Iactually do have that across the whole song, but since this is my first year find it easier to start the sequence programing with something across the grid. But I agree, to me a truly artistic show has to be more than blinking lights, to me if it wasn't we would all be using color organs. I do more decorating for Halloween (right now but I have 48 channels of LOR now...) some people use strobe lights a bit too much and it ruins the overall affect, a cemetery shouldn't feel like a Pink Floyd concert, neither should Christmas. Now I plan on using Carsons sequence he shared and my own for TSO's (#) Queen of the Winter Night so that will probably be 'blinky' but I think it fits the song, Elvis singing Blue Christmas probably not.

Sorry for anyone that missed TSO, they are great. I would have gone all three nights instead of onebut I had to work, hopefully next year.

[deweycooter]

Perhaps that would make for a good feature request in the LOR Sequence Editor - select a time range for a channel(s) and set the minimum intensity. So you could edit your entire sequence and set all channels to a minimum of 30%?

[Kenny Greer]

Thanks for starting this topic, Tim. I had not actually thought of doing anything with everything dimmed and them raising what needed to be on up. I might make an animation sequence in the next day or two and try it out.

I can definitely see myself doing that in the future (read as next year) when I actually add music to my display.

I love this place...such a wealth of information, ideas, suggestions, and the wonderful people who think it all up for us to tinker with.

i swear, some how, some way, i flying to a.l. this coming year and learn how to do some things. im a lot better with my programming than last year, but i know that im not using the full capabilities of my controllers and software. i can only imagine what things can be done that i havent even thought about , that is probably second hand to everybody else.

thyno


Greg Parcell wrote:
One of the things I've learned from Drew Hickman this year

i too have some of the blinky, blinky going on. on some of my faster paced songs, i use some flickers too. i try to soften everything up by using some slow,random, reverse pop fades. never even thought of having lights on at lower levels with effects going on elsewhere. so much to learn.............

thyno

[tfischer]

thyno zgouvas wrote:
i too have some of the blinky, blinky going on. on some of my faster paced songs, i use some flickers too. i try to soften everything up by using some slow,random, reverse pop fades. never even thought of having lights on at lower levels with effects going on elsewhere. so much to learn.............

I think some blinky is fine. What caused me to start the thread was the fact that many displays do ONLY blinky -- and often many or most of the lights blinking on every beat of the song.

When people see my display, I'd like them to think "Wow" or "That's beautiful" or the like, not "Man I can't stand to look at it very long..." :laughing:

-Tim

[mmaness]

I guess I'm a little guilty of the 'blinkie' factor. Last night my wife said one song on my sequence looked like a nightclub. I think that was not intended as a compliment.

Unfortunately, I lost most of my stuff and had to start over on Sunday. It's far easier to program blinkie than not.

This weekend, I hope to soften down the acid trip that I've got running, plus add a few more 'mood' items to further slow things down.

[mmaness]

I guess I'm a little guilty of the 'blinkie' factor. Last night my wife said one song on my sequence looked like a nightclub. I think that was not intended as a compliment.

Unfortunately, I lost most of my stuff and had to start over on Sunday. It's far easier to program blinkie than not.

This weekend, I hope to soften down the acid trip that I've got running, plus add a few more 'mood' items to further slow things down.

[mountainwxman]

Michael, the same thing happend to me also. I'm writing a new show right now and hopefully have it loaded by the upcoming weekend.

[mountainwxman]

Michael, the same thing happend to me also. I'm writing a new show right now and hopefully have it loaded by the upcoming weekend.

[margie]

J.J.'s "Let it Snow" inspired me. It showed that you can have a display synchronized to music without having it too blinky. I do have mini trees that move with the beat, but my color changing trees change colors with the lyrics.


Margie

[mmaness]

Since I lost my last month's work on the show, I quickly created a show .. the main one is Elvis' "Santa's Back in Town'. It was quick, easy and unfortunately way, way too easy to all blinkie up.

I think I'll add something fairly easy like Carol of the Bells and a couple more that are slower to soften the effect of Elvis. Glad I didn't do Jingle Bells by Brian Setzer. That'd really throw people into fits.

[Greg Young]

Greg Parcell wrote:
One of the things I've learned from Drew Hickman this year iskeeping more of the display on at all times at reduced light levels. His basic rule of thumb is to keep about 70% of the lights on at all times and only animate about 30% of them at one time.

For pops or ramps, he then quite often ramps them to 100% but from a starting point of say 30-40%. I have seen especially with large trees, that this reduces the blink effect dramatically while giving an almost elegant look to the animation. Kind of hard to describe, but he's taught me quite a bit on how to still give a wow factor but be subtle at the same time.



I have always felt the same way Greg, that only a portion of the display should be sequenced to music, etc.

There is so much more than simply using a large number of lights (sequenced or otherwise) to create the better displays.... They use vignettes with figures, scenes, structures, etc, etc.

IMHO, nearby neighbors will be far less tolerant of displays that constantly flash, whether sequenced to music or not!

4 or 6 hours of constant flashing every night for a month could get on the nerves of many folks, (possibly made worse by loud music.)

That plus heavy traffic that doesn't move timely can certainly result in neighborhoods taking action against some of these displays.

Just something to consider.

Greg

[Zac_Cutt]

I think it depends on display, my display only has 7k lights and it is very flashy but I do have a streetlight lighting my display and also alot of fast upbeat music. My slower songs have alot more on at a time.
Also my display is 80ft from road so its not that flashy watching.

Zac

tfischer wrote:
thyno zgouvas wrote:
i too have some of the blinky, blinky going on. on some of my faster paced songs, i use some flickers too. i try to soften everything up by using some slow,random, reverse pop fades. never even thought of having lights on at lower levels with effects going on elsewhere. so much to learn.............

I think some blinky is fine. What caused me to start the thread was the fact that many displays do ONLY blinky -- and often many or most of the lights blinking on every beat of the song.

When people see my display, I'd like them to think "Wow" or "That's beautiful" or the like, not "Man I can't stand to look at it very long..." :laughing:

-Tim



when i started this last year, i had too much blinky going on. ive changed some of it this year to make it a little non-blinky. now, im getting kidded about the strobes. its the "an epileptic is going to see those and go into a seizure and sue you" LOL i am very conservative witht the strobes though. just using those for effect at certain times and for never longer than 4 seconds. im hoping i managed the "wow" and "its beautiful" this year (even though i did get a lot of woos and thats cool last year)

thyno

[tfischer]

Next year I hope to redo a good part of the show. One of the challenges will be to look less blinky. This is especially true now that the world has seen Carson's display and knows it's possible (and people locally have seen our computerized display for 3 years now). It's time to push the envelope with some new programming challenges that I have yet to develop... I don't want to give people the same thing every year...

This year, I'm basically using last year's show, plus one new sequence. As some know, I almosttook a year off this year, but decided instead to basically do last year's display again, with a few very small changes

-Tim

[Dennis Johnson]

Tim,

This has been a terrific topic. Thanks for getting it started!

Everyone has their personal preferences and the different styles used to synchronize the lights are certainly the "art" of creating a visually appealing light display. I create a visual image in my head of what I'm trying to accomplish, and then start programming from there. Believe it or not, this years display had run for three nights before I finally had the time to go out to the street and see what I had created. And while I saw a few things that I have since tweaked, I was generally pleased with the results.

I definitely see a pattern (or style) in my approach, and have outlined some thoughts below:

The majority of my lights are in trees and bushes covered with 4 overlapping colors. My general approach is to use these as the "rhythm section". Typically, I will have one color on steady and use overlapping pop fades on two other colors to get them to “pulse” to the beat rather than “blink” to the beat. Variations on this theme will have the pulse move around the yard in circles or, if there is a strong 1-2 beat (think Country & Western), I might make the movement go front to back. If the all on-off “blink” effect is saved for dramatic emphasis, it can be very dramatic.

The melody is being carried by mini-trees, porch columns, and driveway arches. One variation on this is to alternate the melody between different sides of the display area when the music lends itself to a call-response situation (my very first sequence was Dueling Banjos).

Finally, the mega-tree is used for counterpoint, pure visuals e.g. color cross fades, or just made to dance to the beat.

Just to stay within the 15 amp limitation of my control boxes, I will often dim one (sometimes two) colors down to about 70% of max. I would swear that if I didn’t know these lights were dimmed, I couldn’t tell the difference.

I’m certain that my display will not appeal to everyone, but it is MY style of artistic expression and I have fun doing it. Based on this year’s traffic, at least a few other people enjoy it as well. ;)

Dennis K. Johnson

http://www.PensacolaLights.com (http://www.pensacolalights.com/)

[Joseph Ayo]

tfischer wrote:
I'll start by saying I'm interested in a real discussion here. Not trying to "start something", offend anyone, yadda yadda, but trying to improve all of our synchronizing techniques.

One of the comments I repeatedly hear when viewing display videos with others (both within the PC community and externally) is "wow that's cool, but it's way too blinky", or "wow that's really giving me a headache" or "I'm getting dizzy!".




This is where you mix your songs and also avoid LOOOONG songs. Like ideal are the 3 minute or less songs and also get away from every song being a blizzard of lights. What you mention is where I was when I was trying to decide on the techno version of Greensleeves like you used last year or to go with the slower paced Frank Sinatra version. I went with the Frank Sinatra because I just need more slower songs. To be honest your complaints about being too fast or dizzying go away if you place a slow song in between fast songs.

You dont have to go with sleepy silent night for a song, how about, like in my "Its Beginning to Look a Lot Like Christmas song with Perry Como" from last year, I only synced on the bass guitar in the song which had a beat about once every 0.9 seconds and what I did was change all the colors to a unified color on that beat. Then when a busy or fast animating song comes on, everyone is saying, WOW, Look at that, instead of "Lets get outta here because I am getting a headache".

Also you have to choose music that is still up beat but yet slower on the light flashes. This is where timeless classics come into play very well as opposed to going with the all Techno music genre.

Tim, this is not bad criticism, just I have been animating to music 6 years now. You go thru your techno and disco song days but as the years go on, you start longing to balance your playlist with slower songs. Color changes are a great way to slow down your display but keep it just as entertaining and interesting.

[Joseph Ayo]

Greg Parcell wrote:
One of the things I've learned from Drew Hickman this year iskeeping more of the display on at all times at reduced light levels. His basic rule of thumb is to keep about 70% of the lights on at all times and only animate about 30% of them at one time.

For pops or ramps, he then quite often ramps them to 100% but from a starting point of say 30-40%. I have seen especially with large trees, that this reduces the blink effect dramatically while giving an almost elegant look to the animation. Kind of hard to describe, but he's taught me quite a bit on how to still give a wow factor but be subtle at the same time.

I wouldnt really try to stick to this. I mean the best thing I would suggest is change your total technique altogether from song to song. Make your display look completely different and its not bad because the nature of each song lends a lot to the uniqueness.

Also I am a firm believer in using color changes. Like for example I have growing/shrinking boxes in yard. In early years like in 1999, I only had white bulbs on these boxes which occupy 17,000 square feet of grassy front yard. With only white bulbs, all I could do was on and off the lights. Now I overlay, red, blue, and green with the white, now instead of super flashing everyone with on and off, I can change colors. This gets rid of the strong contrasting on and off, now I can have the entire scene change in unisen but you dont get that on to off effect... now white can turn to green, red or blue on demand but the object remains LIT. Changing colors can keep you with the dramatic impact but its less likely to cause headaches or dizzyness or seizure effect then the bold contrast of white to black.

For example, Tim... white not overlay 2, 3 or 4 colors on your mini christmas trees. Instead of on and off.... you can have them all blue with white chasing thru them, etc. Because they change color instead of going to black, you have softened your scene while keeping it dramatic! Its easy to do... take your pattern for trees, then copy and past the scene on the other color, then do an "invert" on the pattern which takes your selection and turns of the off lites on and the on lights off so you get the fill in color while your chaser moves thru it.

[Joseph Ayo]

Greg Young wrote:


I have always felt the same way Greg, that only a portion of the display should be sequenced to music, etc.

There is so much more than simply using a large number of lights (sequenced or otherwise) to create the better displays.... They use vignettes with figures, scenes, structures, etc, etc.

IMHO, nearby neighbors will be far less tolerant of displays that constantly flash, whether sequenced to music or not!

4 or 6 hours of constant flashing every night for a month could get on the nerves of many folks, (possibly made worse by loud music.)

That plus heavy traffic that doesn't move timely can certainly result in neighborhoods taking action against some of these displays.




I think we are missing a point here. Flashy is nice and appropriate for some songs, but you shouldnt run for hours endlessly flashy. We do things slightly different here because the weather is nice, maybe 55 degrees while the show is running. We have a thousand foot walking trail thru the lights and numerous scenes which includes a real 1968 Impala racing down a country road with music sync'd headlights, in other words we have a parade that sits still and YOU walk thru it. We definately dont want to stop the show or go stationary, but since we have had walk thru trail for a number of years. We have been able to talk to people, hear their likes and dislikes. We found its not the animation or flashiness, its the stark contrast of white to black. This is where color changes softened things a bit. We are running a 50 minute show this year, mostly alternating from fast and flashy to slow songs, back and forth. The alternation of slow to fast to slow again seems to really be a sweat spot because just when they get sick of fast animation, you slow it down... just when they get sick of slow song, next song comes and wakes it up again!

Ironically out of our 15 song playlist this year, a Spanish Language Christmas song introduced this year is winning the vote amount non-spanish speaking white guests as the best song overall. The prettiest song is our 2005 rendition of Beethoven's 5th Symphony in disco, we completely reprogrammed the song, it matches every note from beginning to end and ironically its one of only 2 songs that has a strong white to black contrast, but because the stong contrasting on to off is used so sparingly this year, once again, Beethoven and all its gaudy overflashing is the most requested. Most of our visitors sit around the entire 50 minute show waiting for Beethoven to play again. Sometimes they hang around long enough to watch it twice.

Overall since we introduced color changes and the alternations between fast and slow songs, the complaints about being too flashy, dizzying and headache makinghave ended. There is nothing wrong with having eye candy, but you have to keep changing, not only chasing techniques and color changes but make sure each song looks different from another. THis keeps your guests entertained. I beleive this was one thing Darryl Brown hit on very well was he was very much in tune with using the same set of lights over and over but still each song looks different from another and it keeps the guests hanging around to see how the next song will look.

[John Pidliskey]

I like to mix up my shows. Some are slow songs which don't have much Blinky to them, which breaks things up.

[mmaness]

On the other hand, we're doing a public service by identifying people who don't know they're epileptic. Think of all the people wandering around who haven't been diagnosed.

[J. J. Purpura]

Sorry for the late response on the subject. I have been partial to use mostly fades and transitions in my display mainly because of having a long corner lot which has a variety of items which can never be viewed all at one time. So I try to make the whole house kind of fade from one color to the next or from theme to theme and combine the blinking and chasing at certain times.

I am a big fan of the fast blinking lights for they are a great attention grabber as Joseph Ayo and Carson and many others have proved. But if a person does not have the FM radio tuned in or can't hear the music, they will be a little lost as to what the fast rate of blinking is all about. I believe that everyone has a different way to decorate to their own taste, and they can try to view their display and see if changes need to be made, etc, to be more pleasing to others that also view it. That is the great thing about having the computer and being able to make adjustments to a show.

When animated lighting and LOR hit the scene, they brought fading to the controller that wasn't really available before. It allows for a very "soft" effect to the eyes, so that when viewing the display, people can appreciate the colors and overall appearance of the display. When it is timed to the music, you are affecting two senses, both sight and hearing, when they are combined, you will get the responses like "that is pretty cool" or "neat" and the crowd can sit and watch and listen and be entertained.

So a combination of both, or just one or the other is fine, as long as the people enjoy what they are viewing. But you have to evaluate that for yourself, by listening to the comments, of just doing a good viewing of the display on your own, and seeing if it entertains you or not. I try to make a grand finale where most everything comes on for about 5 seconds, then fades to darkness.....

[jeffmill]

mmaness wrote:
(presnip) we're doing a public service by identifying people who don't know they're epileptic. (postsnip)
I about fell out of my chair laughing when I read that.

On another note, when Carson and family were on the Today Show Katie Couric did say she was getting a headache from the lights. I thought that was ironic. She is usually the one causing all the headaches!

Jeff <---first year with LOR is going to be very flashy.

[pixeldigger]

I agree

My first 2 sequences I am working on are of course TSO WiW.

Very flashy: blinky: all off sometimes all on sometimes.

The second I am working is Holly Jolly Christmas, and it has all of my static displays solidly lit, and the lights using ramp/fade trying to sequence with the attack/decay of the voices and instruments.



The only REAL display I've seen LIVE is Dennis', and I thought it was very well done. Nice variety, with a little flash when needed.