Converting a 220 to 110.

[jfelix]

I am wanting to convert a 30amp wwo line to 2 seperate 110 lines. But here is the thing, I need it to use it as 220 in the summer. Here is the deal. I have a pump that I use to draw water from our creek for irrigating the lawn. In teh winter (OCt.) we shut it down becuase we do not need it. So I have the power just setting there at Christmas just screaming USE ME!

So what would be the easiest way to assign this thing double dity. Right now it has a breaker and the main and a shut off box at the pump so I can open the panel and pull the power if ned be. I wanted to wire it when we installed it, but my father-in-law lacked the know-how on setting it up and a 110 plug.

[Santas Helper]

Joey,

With 220, you have 2 hots coming off the breaker with aground and aneutral for the pump (should be 4 wires). With caution on any electrical stuff, disconnect the wires going to the pump and add your 2 seperate 110 hots to it. So you should have 1 hot, ground and neutral for each line (6 wires total).

Please make sure you exerise caution with electrical. Make sure power to the box is OFF before doing anything. And if your still not sure, get some help.

Tom

[dougd]

I have a question along this line. Lets say the 220 breaker is rated at 30 amps. If you use each leg and end up with 2 110 circuits will the circuits kick at 30 amps? Hope that makes sense. The reason for the question isI have several 220 volt 30 amp breakers and was wondering ifI could make use of them. Thanks.

[jfelix]

Santas Helper wrote:
Joey,

With 220, you have 2 hots coming off the breaker with aground and aneutral for the pump (should be 4 wires). With caution on any electrical stuff, disconnect the wires going to the pump and add your 2 separate 110 hots to it. So you should have 1 hot, ground and neutral for each line (6 wires total).

Please make sure you exercise caution with electrical. Make sure power to the box is OFF before doing anything. And if your still not sure, get some help.

Tom


If I understand what your saying I would need to disconnect the pump totally and reconnect it after Christmas, right? I would like to keep it connected if I can. This is my thought, would this work.

Split up the two hots to go to 2 separate outlets, then run the neutral to both outlets, and the grounds. I was thinking of splittingup everythingin a junction box. Then from each outlet run the hots to the pump with one of the neutrals and one grounds going to the pump as well. Does this make sense?



As for the above question: I believe that your double thirty pole breakerwould make 60 amps at 110. Iam not an electrician so my opinion is strictly that, an opinion. That being said you must also consider you are sharing the ground and neutral on that circuit. Also, it is never recommended to use more than 80% of your amps on a breaker.

[TED]

dougd wrote:
I have a question along this line. Lets say the 220 breaker is rated at 30 amps. If you use each leg and end up with 2 110 circuits will the circuits kick at 30 amps? Hope that makes sense. The reason for the question isI have several 220 volt 30 amp breakers and was wondering ifI could make use of them. Thanks.
In a 220 (240) volt service you actually have two hot 120 volt feeds coming in. In order to get 220 you use both hots. What you are calling a "220 breaker" is really a double pole breaker which consists of 2 30 volt breakers one for each 120 feed. So the answer is yes if either 120 feed draws over 30 amps it will trip the breaker.

TED

[dtedebear]

The simplist solution would be to add two 20 AMP circuit breakers to the main panel for your two new circuits. You could leave everything 'on' but only use the pump OR the Christmas lightsbut not both at the same time.

If you do not have room in the main panel, the nexteasiest solution is to add a sub-panel. Use the current double 30 AMP circuit breaker in the main panel to feed the sub-panel. In the sub-panel have:


a 30 AMP double breaker (220 V) for the pump. Move thepump wires from the main panel to thissub-panel.
four 15 AMP (or two 20 AMP) single circuit breakers (110 V)for your light display.This will allow you to power the pump and/or the Christmas lights with the flick of a switch (circuit breaker), but don't use both at the same time.If you draw more than 30 AMPs per phase you will pop thecircuit breaker in the main panel. Make sure the you have the 15 or 20AMP breakers split evenly on the two phases coming in to the sub-panel.

I would not pull power from the Pump Switch for your Christmas light circuits. Call an electrician to help you with this.

[Tony Furst]

You can't use the pump breaker for your lights quite the way you have envisioned. The easiest setup is to install a double pole double throw disconnect adjacent to your breaker panel. This will provide you with a code approved method of having one source of power feed two different loads. This prevents someone from accidentally turnig the power on to the pump and the receptacles at the same time. Also remember to use GFCI receptacles outdoors.



Tony

[Toymakr000]

My first thought was to use a 220 receptical/plug for you pump then make a plug in sub panel for Christmas. That way you can swap the tow without having both plugged in simultaneously. Make sure it 's 4 wire......

[Tony Furst]

Gary,

I like that idea as well, I wasn't fully functional this morning when I posted my comment about the DPDT disconnect.

Tony

[gymnasium]

Joey, I am doing something similar, but wanting to use my A/C power allocation for lights in the winter. The simplest solution for me is to pull two 12ga wires from my panel to an outside box which coincidentally will by right next to the outside A/C unit and put two 20amp GFCI outlets in that box. In the summer I will just turn the breakers off for the Christmas light outlets and in the winter turn off the A/C breaker as I already do now. Fortunately the panel is not to far from where the outside outlets will go, the wires will be easy to pull, and the box has plenty of spare breaker room. I already have all the materials, just need to get my vinyl siding cut and a mounting block inserted.

Does this mean you are not going to sell the house?

[jfelix]

I am thinking my best bets are 220plugs and a subor installing some sort of panel at the pump. I already have a disconnect down there, but a small sub might be better. Like I said I just hate having this power sitting idlein winter. I have a 100amp sub out back, but this is across the uard (about 150+ft from the house. So it would be nice to not run more power.

Jim to answer your question, we still plan to put the house up sometime in the future, just not sure how "near" that future is.

[AI]

Just remember the pump doesn't need a neutral so its probably not there and you will have to run new wire to include one. You can not put a 110v outlet on a 30 amp breaker, the most they are rated for is 20 amps so you will need additional breakers.

Probably not going to be as easy as you hoped. Sorry AI

[dwp49423]

AI wrote:
Just remember the pump doesn't need a neutral so its probably not there and you will have to run new wire to include one. You can not put a 110v outlet on a 30 amp breaker, the most they are rated for is 20 amps so you will need additional breakers.

Probably not going to be as easy as you hoped. Sorry AI
Technically there are 30amp 110v circuits though they are highly specialized. Look at campgrounds and marinas. The RV hookup poles are either 110v 30amp (3 Prong) or 220 50amp (4 Prong). Probably a way somehow to use these if you know how an RV, travel trailer or boat is wired.

[mnkyboy]

dwp49423 wrote:

Technically there are 30amp 110v circuits though they are highly specialized. Look at campgrounds and marinas. The RV hookup poles are either 110v 30amp (3 Prong) or 220 50amp (4 Prong). Probably a way somehow to use these if you know how an RV, travel trailer or boat is wired.



you mean connections like this!

1 50 amp 240v 4 prong RV plug (available at home depot or Lowes for 30 bucks)

1 36ft 50 amp 6/3,8/1 cable with 50 rv plug on one end and a Marinco 50 amp twistlock on the other

1 CEP spider box with 6 120v 20amp GFCI's

6 20 amp twistlock triple taps

[AI]

jfelix wrote:
I am wanting to convert a 30amp wwo line to 2 seperate 110 lines. But here is the thing, I need it to use it as 220 in the summer. Here is the deal. I have a pump that I use to draw water from our creek for irrigating the lawn. In teh winter (OCt.) we shut it down becuase we do not need it. So I have the power just setting there at Christmas just screaming USE ME!

So what would be the easiest way to assign this thing double dity. Right now it has a breaker and the main and a shut off box at the pump so I can open the panel and pull the power if ned be. I wanted to wire it when we installed it, but my father-in-law lacked the know-how on setting it up and a 110 plug.

OK If you have the proper neutral return line then put a sup panel out at the pump. With one 30 amp 220 volt breaker for the pump and 4 15 amp 110 volt breakers that go to outlets. AI

[Tony Furst]

As stated before the problem with this configuration is that it does not prevent a serious overload condition of the breaker that feeds the sub panel.

If the existing 30A breaker at the main panel feeds the subpanel and both the receptacles and pump are powered at the same time then the 30A breaker at the main could be overloaded.

While I realize that with the intent being that this would only be utilized at Christmas you have to remember that at some point in time the house may be owned by someone else or someone may try and utilize one or all of those receptacles while the pump is operating.

The best and safest method is to use either a DPDT disconnect that allows either the subpanel or the pump to be powered at one timebut not both, or have the breaker feed a cordset and then the cordset can be plugged into the subpanel or the feed to the pump.

The intent here is to make sure that the installation is safe at all times and cannot be operated either intentionally or unintentionally at a current greater than which it was designed to handle.

Tony

[AI]

As stated before the problem with this configuration is that it does not prevent a serious overload condition of the breaker that feeds the sub panel.

If the existing 30A breaker at the main panel feeds the subpanel and both the receptacles and pump are powered at the same time then the 30A breaker at the main could be overloaded.and then what would happen? AI

[Tony Furst]

Assuming that the 30A breaker works as intended then the breaker trips and everything goes off. Worst case is that the breaker fails and causes a fire. In either case not exactly the planned outcome.

Why would you intentionally create a potential seriousoverload condition?

I haven't researched the NEC as of yet on this particular installation method but I am quite sure if I review all of the different sections of the code relating to motor control and motors adjacent to water there are probably a few different code sections that may also prevent doing this.

Tony

[jfelix]

This is all good information to know wile I am planning this out. I am planning on making any changes oer the summer.

If I were to stay here for my lifetime than I would not worry about the pump and outlets being on at the same time, because I know enough to never do that. But I can see where Tony is coming from. We do not plan to stay here so I do need to make certain it is done right.

[AI]

You can use Hubble twist lock plugs. A female after the shutoff and a male on the pump. Then set up a sub-panel with a male end that has breakers and GFIs. In the winter unplug the pump and plug in the sub-panel.:smile:AI

[Tony Furst]

Hubble makes a four wire 30A twist lock that will work nicely for this purpose, my only concern is that since your pump was originally wired for 240VAC it most likely is only three wire. You'll have to make sure you have a four wire to the pump so that you have a neutral for your receptacles/subpanel.

Tony

[AI]

AI wrote:
Just remember the pump doesn't need a neutral so its probably not there and you will have to run new wire to include one. You can not put a 110v outlet on a 30 amp breaker, the most they are rated for is 20 amps so you will need additional breakers.

Probably not going to be as easy as you hoped. Sorry AI

[jfelix]

Well I am bringing this back. I fianlly pulled off the cover to my disconnect panel at the pump. No neutral, just 2 power wires and a grouond.

[Dr. Jones]

I was in a similar predicament when I started adding lights. I realized I had the dryer plug just sitting there not doing anything

I built this box to plug into the outlet, It is 30A 240v (2-15A breakers per leg)
The neutrals are connected to the ground, just like the main panel

[Tony Furst]

Yes your neutrals may be connected to the ground buss in your panel this is not code today. My guess is that the ground wire for your dryer is not a full size ground either.

[JKlein]

I would say talk to an electrician to be on the safe side.

[mlittle]

If I remember my NEC code the ground and neutrals are on the same buss in the main breaker box, first panel from the meter. Then in each sub panel the neutrals and the ground is on a seprate buss. you must remove the green screw on the grounding bar, this makes it a neutral bar and then you have to add a ground bar in the sub panel. It then takes 4 wires to feed the sub panel from the main braker box.

I built a detached garage and I put 250 amp service in the garage and then back fed the house panel for 100 amps. I had to remove all of the grounds in the old house panel and put them on a seprate buss, removed the ground screw, ( it's marked) and that made the old grounding bar a neutral bar.

So keep in mind when you are making a temp. sub panel use 4 wires, neutrals and grounds may only be on the same lug for the main panel. (first panel from the meter).

Check with an electrician and he can show you it is very easy.

[JR V]

If I remember my NEC code the ground and neutrals are on the same buss in the main breaker box, first panel from the meter. Then in each sub panel the neutrals and the ground is on a seprate buss. you must remove the green screw on the grounding bar, this makes it a neutral bar and then you have to add a ground bar in the sub panel. It then takes 4 wires to feed the sub panel from the main braker box.

I built a detached garage and I put 250 amp service in the garage and then back fed the house panel for 100 amps. I had to remove all of the grounds in the old house panel and put them on a seprate buss, removed the ground screw, ( it's marked) and that made the old grounding bar a neutral bar.

So keep in mind when you are making a temp. sub panel use 4 wires, neutrals and grounds may only be on the same lug for the main panel. (first panel from the meter).

Check with an electrician and he can show you it is very easy.

You had to remove the "bonding screw" because your home can not have two sources of ground. This is also something people need to remember when they make a temp power pole outside there home. The pole needs to be non conductive so that the temp power grounds back thru the house.

[inspector4]

You had to remove the "bonding screw" because your home can not have two sources of ground. This is also something people need to remember when they make a temp power pole outside there home. The pole needs to be non conductive so that the temp power grounds back thru the house.

From a code stand point, poles can be of any material. The important fact is that white wires are inteded to be current carring condutors (thus they are typically insulated ), and should be isolated from grounding(green/bare conductors). Grounding (green/bare) conductors are the saftey shell around the electical installation. They help to facilitate the tripping of breakers and gfi outlets and under normal circuit operation not intended to carry current.

[speedy petey]

Wow! There is A LOT of erroneous information in this thread. Some of it quite scary. Most of the posts are pretty old so I will not elaborate at this time, other than the fact that you CANNOT have 15 or 20 amp receptacles on a 30A circuit.

dtedebear (http://forums.planetchristmas.com/member.php?u=7486) has good advice in a post on the first page.


Grounding (green/bare) conductors are the saftey shell around the electical installation. They help to facilitate the tripping of breakers and gfi outlets and under normal circuit operation not intended to carry current.A grounding conductor has nothing to do with the functionality of GFI devices. A GFI does NOT need a ground to work properly.

[inspector4]

[
A grounding conductor has nothing to do with the functionality of GFI devices. A GFI does NOT need a ground to work properly.[/QUOTE]

Your absolutely correct...........my bad


Steve

[David Balch]

I would not "convert" 240/220 to 120v
Instead I would make a run with 4 wire to a 4 wire plug (like for a dryer). My dryer has 4 wires already

Then "simply" make a plug in sub-panel to use for the winter. 30a 240v = 60a 12v, enough for a small 6 circuit sub - if not loaded to the MAX. If you will be using near the full capacity then I would only use (3) 20a or (4) 15a breakers

Plug the sub-panel in for lights
Plug the pump in when needed

I'll have seperate 100a sub in the garage some day - mostly for decorations

But you need to run a 4th wire that could be a royal PIA if its 150' as you said? And then there is the problem of being hard wired. My pool pump at 120v had to be GFCI protected (it was hard wired). At 240v it HAD to be hard wired.
So there may be NEC code issues with making that pump cord & plug instead of hard wired. You need advice of a Pro on this I think

And then a sub in a detached structure needs its own grounding rod setup......
I had to install them when I ran my 60a sub in my pool cabana. It's behind my house, not much use for Christmas. But it does give me another (2) outside outlets I can use for my side yard