Do I need UL 508 certification for church's light display

[allove]

The folks from my church saw my brand new light display during Christmas. They were impressed (it actually was pretty good for a beginner). The deacons are wanting to know if I will do a light display for our church. I want to use LOR controllers. The LOR PC line is intended for residential applications. The Showtime line is intended for both residential and commercial/industrial and has UL508 certification. I remember reading somewhere that the UL 508 standard is required of all equipment used in industrial control but would it be required for a church's light display? I'm sure this display will get a lot of attention, and I don't want any trouble with the building inspectors. Am I just being paranoid? I want to buy some controllers this weekend and wonder if the PC line will meet my needs or should I opt for the Showtime controllers? I plan to run this past the inspections dept to be totally sure but could use some advice now.


Thanks,
Al

[FBinthesouth]

Most local codes allow TEMPORARY displays to simply meet the local inspector's idea of "safe". Most do not require permit at all but would be subject to inspection.

Contact your local building office if you need the real scoop because it will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I personally would not contact them at all but that is your call of course!

[jshelby]

We run a 2 million light display at our church and we have some massive switch gear with 7 transformers running the whole thing. 80% of the power has been in underground boxes for the last 25 years and in all that time our insurance nor local inspectors have commented on any code problems. I've been in this a long time and what I see is if you can think like a 5 year old boy and plan to keep him out of it and make it look safe and neat, you should not have any problems. Think it out, if you think there could be a hazard then plan a way to fix it now not later. It might mean you will need to change you display around some but best be safe than sorry. If it looks safe most inspectors won't have a problem with it.

[allove]

JSHELBY,

I just PMed you with a couple questions that were not related to this thread.
Thanks,
Al

[Tony Furst]

Al,

I would speak with your local electrical and fire inspectors and ask for their opinions about minimum levels of protection required. The UL issue may not even come up but they may want specific grounding and enclosure protection requirements, especially since it is considered a commercial installation.

Tony

[jshelby]

I would agree, we churches fall under commercial and because we deal with the public so much, old, disabled and the very young, some times we fall under differant standards. Some things they hold our feet to the fire but on others they let it slide and just tell us we need to fix it sometime in the future. It is best to learn the local codes, I go to classes every year and things do change.
Tony Furst wrote:
Al,

I would speak with your local electrical and fire inspectors and ask for their opinions about minimum levels of protection required. The UL issue may not even come up but they may want specific grounding and enclosure protection requirements, especially since it is considered a commercial installation.

Tony

[iresq]

A Church is not considered an Industrial Installation. You should be more concerened with NFPA 101(life safety - Assembly Occupancies), and NFPA 70 (National Electrical Code). Typically, Fire Departments stick with NFPA Standards. OSHA would be another story but that is for workplace safety.

As this is a temporary installation, you will get a lot of leeway.

As stated earlier, keep your installation neat and safe. Proper grounding, keep electrical cords so they won't be stepped on or present a trip/fall hazard.. Do not use frayed or spliced cords (actually an OSHA standard). Certainly requesting a Fire Department/inspector visit can't hurt and could help provide a defense should the unthinkable happen.

I am in the fire department (hense the screen name) and have done many surveys. We just typically look for the obvious. Our standard check sheets certainly don't cover situations like this.

[-klb-]

The only time I remember seeing somebody post that the UL approval would have made a difference was some time ago. I believe the situation was a seasonal display at a zoo, and the issue was that the inspector did not believe that the cable clamp on the group of 8 cords was adequate strain relief for the cords.. That to his way of thinking, it would be possible for one of the cords in the middle of the bundle to get pulled out. At the time, it was implied that the UL listing that was not yet available on the Showtime product should override the inspectors concern if the listed systems were deployed.

Sorry that it is all third hand info, but I figure it may stir some discussion.

- Kevin

[allove]

Thank you all the help. I do plan to contact the inspections dept, however, I was mostly concerned with the UL 508 issue. After looking over the sales event page at LOR, I sort of decided that I would do what I did last year at my home. I bought preassembled controllers and put them in steel, NEMA 3R enclosures with locks. Old school methods are sometimes the best. I agree with Tony Furst that bonding, grounding, andenclosure protection will likely be the greatest concernby everyone.Fire requirements for the display most likelywill be negligible, in my opinion, due to the displaynot being near anything combustible (i.e. buildings).Of course that might be a stupid thing to say due toour drought. My church has several engineers (me included), electricians, and other associated professionals. It will be safe and pretty too. If I remember correctly,NEC 409 states that UL 508 is an acceptable method of determining whether the short circuit requirements have been made. I may be wrong, and my wife will verify that I am wrong a lot. As Tony stated, UL 508 may not be an issue here due to the location of the display and lack of motor control.

You guys are great. Thank you again. Al

[jshelby]

One of the biggest problems we had last year was the three phase problem and the biggest problem of all was the problem of damaged cat5 runs, we replaced all the runs three times. I can help you, or find someone who can, with these two major problems. LOR at home is totally different than LOR under three phase but when you know this before hand and plan for it, it runs the same as at your home. We will do some rewiring this year because we did not find out until it was to late to rewire last year. Let me know, trust me I have made all the mistakes you can make with LOR, and I can walk you through some things that will make your display all you ask it to be. Let me know James

[allove]

Not to hijack this thread, but James, you are the man. I wish I could have personally seen your church's display. Thank you for your invitation to help me. I'm sure I'll have questions for you. Yes, I'll bet you did have a fun time with 3 phase power and all of thespecial conditionsassociated with it.You know what, that brings to mind a couple things about the LOR design that I need to address--mainly with the level of isolation between the control and power sections.Three phase power and ground loopscould be a problem. Like I said, you're the man.

I'm curious about the Cat5 cabling damage. Was the damage causedby people walking on it? Al

[jshelby]

We rope off all our displays with lights and keep the public back at least 5 feet, we still have not found a way to keep the little kids from hanging on those lights or running under them. Non of the cords are where the public can walk on them. We run under sidewalks or in the trees over head. Like I said most of our outlets are in underground boxes. Look at the LOR forums for "3 phase problems" and see where I made a rear of myself last year.
Isolation was not a problem it was the phase offset that was the problem. After Dan told use how to fix it, there wasn't a problem. I think most of the problem on the cat5 was rabbits, moles, all little critters and the ice. This year we are running pvc conduit between all the controllers to house the cat5.